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Ye Olde Proof of Psi Discussion Discuss proof for or against the existence of psionics. This type of discussion does not belong anywhere else on the forums.

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Old 06-15-2006, 01:29 AM   #31
Ramza
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Once again Arkhaios, you have interesting theory about how the world works, but you don't have proof or compelling evidence.

Isn't it just as likely that empty space does exist, and that objects are made out of particles of mass (as according to more traditional beliefs)?

We have two good theories’ here, but no good reason to favor one over the other.
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Old 06-16-2006, 05:16 AM   #32
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you know, if nothing exists, how in the heck do you yourself perceive it?!  even if you choose to belief that you make it all up, think about yourself... how are you going to make it up if you dont exist?

its all fine and dandy taking shortcuts out of these sorts of problems by deciding that nothing anywhere ever existed at all, but there are good reasons why those universes are not included in the probability sets.
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Old 06-16-2006, 07:47 PM   #33
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Crimson, I've never read the Tao Te Ching, these are ideas I mostly formulate on my own, or, they come to me through the collective. In any case, I never said that nothing is real, or nothing exists. My point is that the only reason there are forms, the only reason there is something, is because there is a particularly prevalent form throughout the universe which allows everything to exist as a particular thing; the idea of no thing, seemingly empty space, psi. It's still something, because it's an idea, a thoughform, a wave pattern, but it is not tangible. It is immeasurable as a quantity, but defineable as a factor. I think everything is made out of conceptual nothing, energy, and observations, not just pure nothing because that can't actually exist, IMO. You can't have true nothing because the moment you think about true nothing, the idea of what true nothing should be, becomes a thing. This is why I think psi itself cannot be measured in a direct manner and we have to rely on the effects of the energy patterns which psi holds in place.

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Isn't it just as likely that empty space does exist, and that objects are made out of particles of mass (as according to more traditional beliefs)?

We have two good theories’ here, but no good reason to favor one over the other.
True absolute empty space can't exist, or at least, I can't conceive of it in a normal sense. I can understand a space that is absent of things, tangible forms, which would give off the appearance of being empty, but there still remains the fact that we give that apparently empty space a label(an idea of what a thing appears to be), thereby making the apparent nothing a something. But yes, it is just as likely that empty space does exist and the traditional views are right, but remember that people once held the idea that we are at the center of the solar system and universe even, as traditional. Now there is evidence to suggest otherwise, but when theories were previously presented, they were not accepted. I understand I have an interesting theory, but the currently accepted models are also just theories, and they aren't all that interesting or evident, compared the possible explanations that make more sense, to me at least. Besides, the current view is a big tangled mess, so we need something new and fresh to bring us out of the hole we have made for ourselves.

Winged Wolf has the clostest understanding so far, by pointing out the possibility of no such thing as empty space. Everything does indeed "exist". This includes the "idea of no thing", which is still a thing, an idea, and it is this idea of no thing, which allows definitive existence. If there weren't any ideas of nothing(what nothing should be), then everything is inseperable, unified and undefined. All things together as everything is the closest I can get to absolute nothing. If all things exist without seperation, there no longer can be the definition, or difference between one thing and the next. Wood and metal would be essentially the same, and IMO, they really ARE the same, but we live in a reality where we have the idea of nothing(psi), to hold energy in different forms. If you really think about this concept, it's paradoxical, but it somehow works. I think it's because we just want it to work, so it does. We want to live and die, we want to breath, we want to experience fruit and veggies and bread as seperate things, even though they aren't. We set up these ideas for ourselves and use these ideas of what nothing should be, to create the illusion of seperation.
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Old 06-16-2006, 08:33 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog
you know, if nothing exists, how in the heck do you yourself perceive it?!  even if you choose to belief that you make it all up, think about yourself... how are you going to make it up if you dont exist?
Cogito ergo sum (I think, therefore I am)
-Descartes

The problem we have is proving that anything other than the self exists.
I cite the skeptical argument:
1 - In the past, my senses have decieved me
2 - Therefore my senses could be decieving me right now, or at anytime in my past.
3 - I cannot trust my senses
4 - Therefore all information I have gained through sensory input cannot be trusted.

I know I exist... but the rest of this world could be a very cogent hallucination.


-Turkey

PS: Arkhaios, you should look into Taoist practices. Taoism meshes very well with psionics and most religions (if that's a factor). Bruce Kumar Frantzis' books on water meditation are a good place to start. You already think in some ways like one.
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Old 06-16-2006, 09:15 PM   #35
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But ideas are not things, they are patterns in things.  A book is made of paper and ink.  A pile of paper and a puddle of ink is not a book.  It is the pattern of the ink on the pages of the paper which creates the symbols called letters.  These symbols have meaning because the patterns formed by the electrical impulses in our brain are able to interpret them as having meaning.

Without the patterns, there is no book.


While it is true that we cannot completely trust our senses, it is also true that we have no reason to believe that they are always failing us.  It is a logical fallacy to conclude that because our senses are fallible, everything we sense must be false.

Yes, the world could be a hallucination.  That does not mean that it IS a hallucination, it only means that we personally cannot be certain.

Which view of reality is more productive, causes you greater joy, and less pain?
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Old 06-17-2006, 02:04 AM   #36
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so you conclude that because you have mis-interpreted sensory input, the entire universe is completely nullified and only you yourself exist in a permanant trance-state within it.  i think i can work with that...

1)  my senses are wrong, therefor nothing but myself exists.
2)  because only i exist, my life is in fact a representation of a constant hallucination.
3)  because my senses are my only way of perceiving my life, my life does not exist
4)  because all of my memories were gained through the use of some sense, none of my memories ever happened
5)  because my memories could never have possibly happened, my life could not have begun at any point in time.

conclusion:  i do not exist in this or any other dimension.  i cannot exist in any existant or potentially existant universe.  because i interacted with other so called people, for whom these conclusions also apply in exactly the same manner, i am a schizophrenic loser who's life does not exist and does not affect the flow of time in any way.  whatever universe i attempted to project myself into is completely unaffected and continues on its merry way.

and because you only know that you exist through the use of your senses, you are also crazy.



sorry to rain on your parade like that.  but you've lived a good life, right?
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Old 06-17-2006, 02:56 AM   #37
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I never said that my senses were wrong, I said that they were entirely untrustworthy.

The next logical step would be to realize that philosophy now exists entirely in the realm of ideas. However, apart from the cogito and conceptual mathmatics, it is difficult at best to prove any sort of idea without the use of sensory input.

Bringing this back to "ye olde proof od psi dicussion," basically, our first step in order to prove psi would be to prove the existence of other souls. I know I exist, but I sure don't know that you all do. If we can figure out this proof, then empaths will have a means of working that does not require physical proof.
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Old 06-17-2006, 04:26 AM   #38
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How about we settle for reasonable evidence of psi, which is what we have for everything else in common use in physics? <G>
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Old 06-17-2006, 10:39 AM   #39
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Winged Wolf, without the idea for a book to start with, the words are meaningless and they exist without a form. Ideas are primary to the existence of patterns, as complex systems of ideas give rise to the recognition of patterns. The only reason symbols have any meaning whatsoever is because they are meant to simplify or exemplify the meaning of an idea.

Without an idea for a story there is no possibility of a book, but once there is an idea, then symbols, paper, and ink are all created to manifest the idea.
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Old 06-17-2006, 05:51 PM   #40
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The idea itself is a pattern in someone's mind, formed by the electrical impulses in their brain.  Outside of this, it has no existence.
It is only a pattern IN something, it is not a thing itself.

A meme is a self-propagating idea...again, it's a pattern.  Patterns are what create life.
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