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Ye Olde Proof of Psi Discussion Discuss proof for or against the existence of psionics. This type of discussion does not belong anywhere else on the forums.

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Old 06-17-2006, 07:24 PM   #41
Arkhaios
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Yes, Winged Wolf, you are right, outside of an electrical impulse, we have yet been able to measure a thought. This is what I am saying, your backing me up, psi is a meme, a self-propogating idea.

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The idea itself is a pattern in someone's mind, formed by the electrical impulses in their brain.  Outside of this, it has no existence.
If psi is a meme, an idea, then it's a pattern of electrical impulses, yet, outside of this it has no existence? Winged Wolf, if a pattern is not a thing, how do patterns create things? How can nothing create something? If an idea is a pattern, an electrical impulse and has no existence outside of this, then how does a self-propogated nothing create life? If patterns of ideas create life, then everything we see is an idea... the idea of no thing.

You kinda proved my point...

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Old 06-17-2006, 09:15 PM   #42
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The only thing patterns create is more patterns.  Conservation of energy and mass.  They use things to create more patterns.

Ideas do not exert force, the medium they are formed in exerts force.  Psi exerts force, therefore it is not an idea--it is not merely a pattern, but is a medium.
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Old 06-18-2006, 08:10 AM   #43
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wow, this thread is off track.  i can understand it shifting from proof that psi energy does not exist to why you would think that it doesnt exist.  but this is just too far.  its like it polarized and is now shooting off in ever more pointless tangents.
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Old 06-18-2006, 08:28 AM   #44
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Life is an elaborate pattern, don't you agree?

Ok, so no one really knows for sure what psi actually is... that still doesn't change the fact that we, as humans, have the capability to interact with reality in many ways. I think calling psi a tangible, measurable medium, as if it were a wave or a field or particle, isn't quite right. Psi itself does exist, and can be understood, but it can not be directly measured or observed, as if it were an object. What can be directly measured and observed are the effects of existing forces acting upon eatchother . I find it amusing that when these forces interact abnormally, or in ways we perceive to be unnatural, or previously thought to be impossible, we make up new names for the same forces that have always been at work. Bottom line, we need to do more research to see what forces are actually at work when we interact with energy psionically.
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Old 06-18-2006, 04:59 PM   #45
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But I can directly observe psi energy rather easily, Arkhaios.  I can measure it, too, in a comparative ballpark sort of way.  It can't yet be MECHANICALLY detected, but that doesn't mean it will NEVER be.
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Old 06-18-2006, 07:48 PM   #46
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Our observations of reality are not direct. Our consciousness assimilates the incoming sensory signals and compiles them into a coherant(sometimes) picture. We are not perceiving light, heat or any other type of energy directly, so any effects which you attribute to psi, are generated in your mind, based on certain signal patterns. Our sensory organs get direct input, but we operate on a relay system in which our organs generate electrical signals based on the input they receive, then they send the signals to the brain for processing and compilation.

If we were able to process and understand all the sensory information that was coming in at any one time, we would be experiencing a great deal of noise and conflicting interference. This is why people with psionic ability experience chatter, frequencies and other things that people don't normally experience. They have an altered consciousness that is able to perceive more of the input that is coming in from the sensory organs. Most people just block it out, and most of the time for their own safety. Not everyone can handle listening to the constant stream of babbling insanity that spills from the mind of humanity.

I think the reason you can observe the effects of psi and comparitavely measure it, is because you and other people, are in the practice of working with energy through consciousness. Psi is a huge factor in the exchange of energy. I think it allows the seperation of energy cells, so they can form specific patterns, much like programming. However the energy that is made to do work, is not psi. The human eye cannot see psi, nor can the human skin feel psi, and if you claim you can, it just means you have adjusted your brain to interperet specific patterns of energy in relation to specific events.

We can understand psi, and use psi to change patterning of energy(change temperatures, disturb electrical pathways, etc...), but I don't think we will ever be able to directly measure or mechanically observe actual psi, because it has no mass, or charge and IMO, psi is a containter space that is absent of things. This would allow psi to form any type of pattern imaginable. The more complex and powerful you want to make something, the higher your skill has to be in order to succesfully make what you want. Psi does exist, but not in the way that we think it does.
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Old 06-18-2006, 10:02 PM   #47
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The lack of paragraphs makes it difficult for me to determine whether you actually are speaking coherently, but your premise is incorrect, and your theories regarding human sensory perception are baseless.

The human eye registers light signals. It then translates those signals in the brain to create the coherent signal. If something generates or reflects light, we see it. In the rare cases when psi reflects light, we see it.

The human skin is covered in touch receptors which trigger when impacted. It is quite possible to create psionic effects that are undeniably feelable, and trigger the sense of touch. It has nothing to do with "the mind learning to translate it like this" because total nons with no concept of psi can "feel" it physically all the same.

Now, the mind does tend to translate our "other" senses into the traditional five in some cases - I've been told that non-telepaths who learn telepathy actually "hear" things like a sound, because their mind doesn't have the faculties for telepathic sense in a pure manner. Also, "seeing" energy such as in sensing it in fields, etc., is often performed by synaesthetically linking the "energy sense" to the visible sense in order for the mind to deal with it more easily.

However, this is not to say that we don't have any actual sensory input from psi - we do. We can detect psi with a variety of lab equipments (I believe Sean over at Pog has been having success with a Geiger counter) and we can feel it, physically, when it's used. At least the several people at my school to whom I've demonstrated it can, as well as my family.

Hmm, having re-read, it seems you're trying to say the same thing as I am, regarding sensory input. It just rubbed me wrong the first time I read it.
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Old 06-19-2006, 01:21 AM   #48
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yeah, I tend to get carried away and forget that grammar thing called a paragraph sometimes. What parts of my premise do you perceive as incorrect? I am expecting a response of... the entire thing... but let me know anyway. By the way, what does the measurement of psi register as, I mean, what force does it show up as?
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Old 06-19-2006, 02:29 AM   #49
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Your premise is not as incorrect as I'd perceived, I'd gotten confused reading it all in one block, and thought you were making some kind of solipsist argument.

The research going on over at Pog indicates it is detected by radiation detectors. I've also had success detecting it as electromagnetic radiation.
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Old 06-19-2006, 04:40 AM   #50
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It is too bad that Labs which have equipment capable of detection on the quantum level are not attempting to detect Psi.  Although that is assuming they aren't.  But i've never heard of it happening.
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